posted August 12, 2001 06:02 PM 

There is a raging controversy going on right now

Raging?  No - it's simply a discussion.

on one of the other email lists concerning table traiing. (can't spell "training", idiot?) It's being lead (don't you mean "led", idiot?) by a guy from Florida named Steve Leigh. 

Leigh is in the Piano business

There's an example of Frawley's inability to either read or recognize what he sees.  How many pianos have you seen with two keyboards?

(at least that's what his web site is all about) but claims to be a big time table trainer (10 years experience) and guard dog trainer.

I've never trained a guard dog in my life.  This is fascinating.  Keep on spewing, LEERKOPF™.  I'll catch plenty of your contradictions as we go along.

Leigh even brags that he is writing a book on the subject - even quotes Max von Stephanitz (interesting ). I can't wait to see this one. Guard dog trainer, piano player and table trainer - an interesting resume for someone who claims to be an expert dog trainer.

There's only ONE "expert".  His name is LEERKOPF™ Frawley. 

For any new trainer that does not know what table training is all about I would point them to my web site and read the article I wrote on the subject Table Training In Protection Work Why I Don't Agree With It 

I personally dismembered Frawley and his "Table Training" article.  It's located elsewhere on this site - don't miss it.

Guys like Leigh are the pied pipers for a really stupid way to train dogs. I will quote Bernard Flinks and Kevin Sheldahl (two people who have more knowledge about dog training in their little finger than a guy like Leigh will will learn in a life time)

As if Frawley even has a clue.  Notably, Frawley's puppets have more knowledge than anyone - especially people who don't agree with LEERKOPF™ Frawley.

"TABLE TRAINING IS TOTAL SHIT TRAINING" I agree 100% with this description. 

Maybe it is - for all the idiots that can't understand it and know nothing about it.

Table traiing (still can't spell "training", idiot?) may work for guard dogs or Leighs uneducated personal protection dog customers (who don't know any better) but it does not work for police work - at least not police work where a dog has to really hunt people.

This is a pile of shit-just what we expect from "expert" Ed Frawley.  Could you explain "police work", LEERKOPF™?  Could you explain the hundreds (or thousands) of police K9s trained by Gene England - on tables?  Maybe you could explain why they don't hunt?

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posted August 12, 2001 08:03 PM 

It is only my peronal (can't spell "personal", idiot?) opinion but I feel the reason clubs use tables is because they lack skilled training helpers who can really recognize and train a dog in the different drives - or maybe they know what the drives are but they lack the skill to know how and when to put a dog in these drives. 

So blame the tables, because the "helpers" wreck dogs. 

If a club has a skilled training helper they don't need a a table to work their dogs on. 

Not bad!  Nobody ever said a table is NEEDED - tables are WANTED by trainers who know what they're doing. 

This issue is less about the fact that the dogs are "ON A TABLE" and more about working dogs in "Fight or Flight" 

There is absolurtely (can't spell "absolutely" either, idiot?) no difference (not one bit) between working a dog on a table and tieing (it's spelled "tying", idiot) him to a fence and putting enough pressure on the dog that it goes into fight or flight and bites. It is exactly the same thing. 

I dissected Frawley with my words on exactly this point in the original "expert table training" article.  He might as well have handed me a verbal scalpel and meat cleaver.  Read it - you'll love it.

That is the way they trained dog 50 years ago - the only thing that Stve (my name is Steve, idiot) Leigh and his people do is put them up on a table and whine that those that have not done it should not bash it. 

No - I'm far too articulate to whine - that's Frawley's domain.  Frawley drove Tampabay Roadrunner crazy with his whining complaints after this website was created.

Tieing (it's spelled "tying", idiot) a dog to a fence (or putting him on a table) will work for guard dog trainers like Leigh because the dogs are in a controlled enviorment. (having a problem with "environment", too, idiot?) He can teach them that they will either stand and fight or deal with the consequences

This shows how little Frawley is able to understand English, but hell - English is difficult.

- but take that same dog and try and make a police dog out of him that has to go out and do building searches or area searches and it is only a matter of time before they face a serious threat and look for the back door to let themselves out.

Can you prove one word of it, idiot LEERKOPF™?

Thats why these dogs can't hunt people - because it exposes the shit weakness in this entire concept of protection training. 

Anytime "Expert" Ed is ready to prove this crap, I know exactly where and how he can do it.  But the LEERKOPF™ "expert" won't ever do it.  He'll just spew his "expert" bullshit on a computer. 

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posted August 12, 2001 10:03 PM 

BI remember were if you work the dog in defense you have the option to lower your body to below the body of the dog making yourself appear less intimidating (relieving stress). /B2 

I think this is total bunk. It's table training retoric (try "rhetoric", idiot) trying to justify this work. If you work puppies and need to get lower than them you lay down - if you are working adult dogs and they are so weak that you need to get lower than them you lay down. 

I think "Expert" Frawley ought to lay down (with a spell checker).  Permanently.

If you put a dog on a table because a helper doesn't know how to take a chest bite - well you are going to get this guy bit in the face because he has no business taking a chest bites. 

WHAT??  CHEST BITES?  Where'd that come from?  What's that got to do with anything?  I think Frawley's drugs just took over his whole world.  The idiot probably left the planet.

No - in my opinion there is no place for tables in bite work. The only thing that I will agree to about table training is that "I agree to disagree with the people who use table training". 

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posted August 13, 2001 12:20 PM 

It's too bad because a lot of nice people are suckered into table training. I have friends (Steve Leigh is not one of them)

Goddamn right I'm not!

that do it and we simply have to disagree on this area of dog training. 

Frawley doesn't have to agree OR disagree - he oughta just try FACTS, rather than "expert" opinions from an idiot who's obviously never SEEN table training in his life.  He hasn't even seen TABLES.  But he knows ALL about them.     

I think there are a lot of new trainers who get involved with this because they hear a good sales pitch and don't have the experience to knwo (you mean "know", idiot?) what is and is not good training.  

Just ask the "expert".  He knows it ALL.

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Member Rated:

posted August 13, 2001 08:05 PM 

Ed 

Is Steve Leigh on this list?

Nope.  Never was.  Never will be.  Don't ever want to be.

If not, why are you slamming him when he can't defend himself?

Because that's how Frawley has fun.

I don't notice you posting on the protection dog list, where the conversation started. It is easy to win an argument, when your adversary isn't around. 

That's how LEERKOPF™ Frawley the "expert" does things. 

If the table, is evil incarnate why do you still sell the Tom Rose, Training the Forced Retrieve Video? The table is a wonderfull tool in the hands of an expert, it's abusive in the hands of idiots, just like most any other training device. 

Frawley sells whatever he can make a nickel from.  It makes no difference - just as long as he gets his nickels.  Pimps do it, too.

Kevin S 

If you think, table training is such a bad training etc. why didn't you state your opinion last February to Gene England when he was at John Oliver's place? I"m not sure if you were there, since I don't know you, but everything I saw Gene do, for the three days was positive and built confidence in every dog put on the table, including mine? If you are going to argue the pros and cons of table use, it sure seems like the inventor (innovator)- proponent of its use would be a logical choice to have the discussion? 

It's MUCH easier to discredit and badmouth people behind their backs. 

FACT: Gene England isn't going to participate in this bullshit.  Has anyone EVER seen an article or message from Gene?  He doesn't give a shit WHAT idiots write about him - he's been doing his thing forever, and his accomplishments are RECORDED FACTS.

But Frawley's accomplishments aren't recorded facts because they don't exist.  If these idiots - Frawley, Yarnell, Voodoo Louie and the LEERKOPF™ puppets - have something to say, they can say it to Gene's FACE - but they won't.  They're lacking balls.  They WON'T confront Gene.

-------------------- 

Regards
Thomas 

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posted August 14, 2001 08:45 AM 

Hi Karmen, 

The table is just a piece of equipment. My girl at 15 months, old was too defensive and not
confident. The skills of the trainer (Gene England) was the deciding factor in bringing her out. The height of the table made it easier for him to see the reaction of the dog. Made the dog more confident since the trainer doesn't need to hover over the dog. 

THIS IS NOT CORRECT.  Thomas didn't fully understand all the reasons.  Especially during a seminar, the trainer and handler can not sit down and spend hours discussing all the "whys".  There is usually a group of people waiting to have their dogs worked at Gene's seminars.  There's just no time to discuss every move and reason.   

There was no bite work with her. Gene peeked out from behind a blind, she barked him back. He gradually increased the level of agitation while building her confidence.
When the session was finished, she was the baddest ass on the field :-) She controlled the decoy, made him retreat with her power and her bark VBG
Of course, any moron can chain a dog to a table and beat the crap out of him, this isn't table training, it's just bad training. It just seems like some people are too quick to condemn a tool, because it has been missused.
This is an appropriate subject for this forum. What I object to, is personal attacks and demeaning comments about people who aren't here. 

LEERKOPF™ Frawley specializes in that.

-------------------- 

Regards
Thomas 

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posted August 14, 2001 09:22 AM 

Thomas 

Lets get something straight right here in public.

Yessuh!  Let's get something straight right here in public.  I have a website that positively WRECKS LEERKOPF™ Frawley's idiotic table lies and stories.  It shows what a moron can do when you let him near a computer.  Enjoy it - it only proves that Frawley is a raving lunatic.  You're already here.  Look around a little. 

I suggest that you listen and re-read this email.

And I suggest you EAT your mail, LEERKOPF™.

Steve Leigh is a slug.

A "slug" with 20 times your mental capacity.  "LEER" means "empty" and "KOPF" means "head" in German.  That's why your name is LEERKOPF™ - YOU HAVE A VACUUM UPSTAIRS - a cranial VACANCY.  "Room For Rent". 

ANY TIME you think you can match wits with ME, idiot Frawley, stand up alone - like a MAN - and let's do it.  I run rings around you and your LEERKOPF™ puppets - and it's obvious.  Idiots like you can't stand up to people like me.  We confuse you.  We befuddle you.  We stupefy you.  We can out-think, out-logic, and out-reason you in a microsecond.  You're left in the dust wallowing in your idiot confusion.   

That's why your name is LEERKOPF™.  

As far as I am concerned he is a low life piece of garbage guard dog trainer.

Which, yet again, illustrates your stupidity.  I've never trained a guard dog.  Maybe I'm a "low life piece of garbage" - and what are YOU?  An EMPTY LEERKOPF™ HEAD WITH A HUGE MOUTH.  TOO MUCH TO SAY - NO FACTS TO BACK UP YOUR BULLSHIT.  That's why your name is LEERKOPF™.

The guy has a screw loose in his head - that is evident from the emails that I get from him. I have blocked his emails from my system. 

What a crock of shit.  Not only am I NOT blocked, I sent idiot LEERKOPF™ a page link.  Less than 1 minute later, there he was.  I didn't block Frawley's email - they're all reprinted verbatim on another page.  You can decide who has loose screws.

I have also seen the trash talk this jerk has written and posted about me on protection dog list. Those posts were forworded ("forwarded" too difficult for you, LEERKOPF™ idiot?) to me. 

The truth hurts?  You ought to write about FACTS, not your LEERKOPF™ fairy tales.

I am not and do not care to be a member of the protection dog list. I was several years ago and dropped out. Leigh and I went at it then - so I have a history with this jerk.

LEERKOPF™ - YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT.  

I wasn't ON the protection dogs list several years ago. 

I am not a fan of lists that operate by sending e-mails to members - I get 50 to 100 normal personal emails every day as it is and I don't care to get any more tha that. 

So this is the way this board works - I look at it as my back yard. If you want to come in and play thats fine. But if I don't like you or if I think you are a piece of garbage I will kick you out of my back yard. Thats a very easy and clear way to look it. I could give a rip if people like Leigh or you don't like the rules. If you don't like the game then don't play in my back yard! 

Steve has no problem with that, Expert Ed.  I've got MY OWN back yard - the WFFCW - and it illustrates what an idiot you are.  A true LEERKOPF™.  And a lying asshole, too.

As far as your opinion of table training is concerned, it is eveident (can't spell "evident", idiot?) that you are new to this work and do not know much about protection dog training. You have a lot to learn. Your comments on the hieght (can't even spell "height", idiot?) of the table and the dog feeling confident because it does not have to look up at the helper indicate your lack of understanding of what is really going on. All that tells me is that "You bought into the sales pitch" - thats what happened. 

All that tells me is that Thomas simply didn't clearly understand the logic and reasoning behind some exercises with his dog.  Big freaking deal.  Being new to tables, he hadn't been exposed enough to recognize the REAL reasons, and drew conclusions that seemed logical and obvious to him at the moment.  "Sales pitch"?  There is none.  Who's selling tables? 

LEERKOPF™ Frawley sells "vidz-fer-kidz".  THERE'S your "sales pitch"!

Gene England is a good dog trainer.

"Good"?  Gene's done more with and for dogs and handlers in the last 90 days than LEERKOPF™ Frawley and his puppets have in their entire lives - collectively.  Gene's trophy room is bigger than 3 bedrooms. 

LEERKOPF™, why don't you tell us all about your trials?  Tell us about how many times you've come home with 1st place trophies and/or High In Trial awards - tell us about how you qualified for National AND World competitions.  Tell us ALL how many times you've WON National competitions - what were your scores? 

Why don't you put some scans and photos on your kindergarten kiddy website, and we can all be IMPRESSED with WHAT YOU HAVE NEVER DONE.   

He knows exactly what he is doing. He also knows how dangerous this work is when it is done poorly.

Dangerous?  Gene has always been happy to teach the right way.  He insists on it.  Why is table training DANGEROUS?  Because an asshole like LEERKOPF™ Frawley said so?  An idiot who has never SEEN tables or table training?  Well, a "low life piece of garbage" like ME says LEERKOPF™ is dangerous.  And he's an idiot.  And he's a liar.  And his spelling is SO bad, it's beyond deplorable.       

Why do you think he has never done videos on this work?

I don't "THINK" - I KNOW.  Gene doesn't live for video sales like Frawley does.  Maybe it's because Gene isn't a PIMP.  I have about 200 video hours of Gene doing table work, I'm sure plenty of other people do, too.  Gene isn't about to let "table expert" LEERKOPF™ Frawley do a table training video with him.

Gene refused to let LEERKOPF™ tape the SchHUSA National Schutzhund trials held on his property years ago.  Want to address THAT one, Frawley?  The two times you were told you COULD NOT make video tapes on Gene's property?  Was that 1982 and 1985?  Or should we hide that in a closet someplace? 

People who are new to protection dog work (like you) fail to understand that bite training is not like obedience training. Bite training in the eyes of the dog borders on combat training.

Bullshit, garbage, and drivel from the LEERKOPF™ table "expert".  The idiot who has NEVER SEEN tables.

Not all dogs (or 15 months old puppies)are ready for real combat. Putting them on a table, in a position where they have to learn to defend themselves from a helper is traumatic situaton (try "situation", idiot) for them - contrary to what you or Leigh may think. 

Now you take someone with 20% less skill than Gene England

NO, LEERKOPF™.  YOU take someone with 20% less skill than Gene - take your puppets who LOVE your "vidz-fer-kidz".  Gene's colleagues DON'T have 20% less skill than Gene - Gene SEES to that.  That's why Gene is Gene.  GENE IS A TRAINER, idiot.  You are NOT a trainer. 

That's the difference between watching your idiotic "vidz-fer-kidz" videos and LEARNING from Gene.  You empty headed moron - Gene TEACHES.  You SELL "vidz-fer-kidz". 

I've seen dozens of SHIT "helpers" that have "vidz-fer-kidz".  The suckers ordered bunches of your kiddy vidz.  I wouldn't let them near a dog if the dog was alive. 

and have them work on the table and screw up one time (it only takes one time) and this combat situation turns into a fear - life and death situation to the dog.

Except for one thing, LEERKOPF™.  We've been trained NOT to screw up.  YOU'RE the one that needs a little "combat".  Why don't you take that yapping LEERKOPF™ face, and head down to the local ghetto?  Go talk some shit with a few pimps, and get your dumb ass carved up - try some real "combat", idiot. 

The experience is like a women getting rapes.

Getting WHAT??  Why don't you take some LANGUAGE courses?  LEARN TO READ AND WRITE IN ENGLISH.  LEARN HOW TO TURN ON YOUR SPELL CHECKER, you idiot. 

You're lucky your name is ED.  It's only two letters - not much room to screw that up, is there, idiot?

THEY DO NOT FORGET THIS - NOT EVER !!!!! Ask a women who has been raped if the fear ever leave her mind - I can tell you from experience on the sheriff's department that it does not. 

So don't give me your beginner song and dance sales pitch. Go learn something about how to properly train a protection dog.

Damn right, LEERKOPF™.  I'm glad I learned - from Gene.  Not from your "vidz-fer-kidz".

It all comes back to this - if you have a well trained helper that understands how to take a dog through prey drive devlopment (it's "development", idiot) and work him into a little defense and aggression drive (if the dog has aggression or fight drive) there is no need for these stupid tables.

Yeah - you're Frawley - the LEERKOPF™ "expert"!  How can a TABLE be stupid?  Are leashes stupid, too?  Maybe they should go to your school - LEERKOPF™ University.  They could learn how to SPELL correctly.   

Not all dogs can or should be trained to do protection work. Even when it is done properly many dogs simply do not have the genetic make-up for the work.

Nobody ever said they did, LEERKOPF™.

Guard dog trainers, like Steve Leigh, have to be able to work with everything that walks through their front door - regardless of genes. For them table training is the solution to a dog whose genetic make-up cannot do the work with correct training. 

Prove these statements any time you want, any way you can.  Then watch me prove you 100% wrong.

Schutzhund clubs that try and train show dogs who don't have the genetic make-up (solid nerves) for sport work are also people who use this mehtod (it's "method", idiot) of work. Many (not all) show dog people want their dogs to look like a badass. Putting them on a table and working them in defense and fight or flight will create just that picture.

Just more bullshit. 

But when guys like you and Leigh start telling new sport dog trainers that this is the second coming of christ - well thats a line of bull.

You oughta know - you write bullshit all day long.

Any new trainer who buys into this has not been exposed to good helpers who understand the drives of a dog and how to use these drives in a solid foundation of bite development. There are much better ways to train a dog. 

What I find interesting is that you had Bernard Flinks in NM is past March. I was there and did not see you at his seminar. Flinks is one of THE BEST sport dog trainers in the world.

Are you overlooking Gene England?  He's 100x superior to your new hero, Flinks - except you can't make a nickel off Gene and your "vidz-fer-kidz". 

Recognize the difference?  Plenty of us do.

You seem to be missing the ball on your dog training. 

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posted August 14, 2001 06:08 PM 

No !! the issue is that some dogs do not have the geentic (try "genetic", idiot) make-up to be protection trained. If the owners of those dogs chose to not recognize this fact and still try and protection train their dogs they only have one option and that is FIGHT OR FLIGHT (table training). 

Drivel from the LEERKOPF™ "expert".

That is the issue - this is not about differences of opinion this is about differnces (it's "differences", idiot) of experience. Opinions are like ass holes - eveyone ("everyone", idiot) has one - its just that some people have the experience to back their opinions and some do not. You fall into that catagory ("category", idiot).

And so does LEERKOPF™ Frawley: no experience, no knowledge, just a pile of drivel about tables and how they're used. 

If you want some advice - let your dog be a nice pet. I have talked to some peopel (you can't even spell "PEOPLE", idiot?) who know your dog ! 

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Member Rated:

posted August 15, 2001 08:53 AM 

Ed writes: 

If you want some advice - let your dog be a nice pet. I have talked to some peopel who know your dog !

Ed, 

Actually I don't want any advice from you. I'm perfectly content to let you be the "expert" on your list.
An easy goal to achieve when you get to limit access to anyone who doesn't agree with you. You don't have to be around the sport very long, to discover your high opinion of yourself, isn't shared by a lot of other people. 

Your unsolicited comments above, are pure BS! You've never seen my dog, you don't
know my dog. The peopel (sic)
that you mentioned are figments of your imagination.
If anyone wants to know if my
girl is a working sport dog or just a pet, ask the decoys who work her every week, not
someone who's never seen her. 

-------------------- 

Regards
Thomas 

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posted August 15, 2001 11:27 AM 

Thomas 

We are getting a little pissy are we not.

Oh my! 

I never said I saw your dog

But Frawley knows all about her - a TRUE LEERKOPF™ "expert".

- I said a friend saw the dog.

And I say Frawley's friend is blind.  Now what?  This is exactly the same yapping as Frawley's "expert table article". 

"A friend told me ......" 

Does Frawley ever see anything for himself?  

A friend who knows more about dogs than you will learn in you ("your", idiot) life time.

His comment was that if you wanted to train your dog in protection you were doing the right thing in putting the dog on the table and table training it. Of course maybe you do not understand the significance of that statement. 

My goodness - how subtle. 

Maybe Frawley can come up with an explanation then: 

This exact same dog (that LEERKOPF™ Frawley never saw, that he suggests "be a nice pet") received ALL Schutzhund degrees, along with numerous other titles.  Now how the hell could THAT be?  Got an answer to that one, idiot Frawley?

As far as your smart-mouth comment about the board - I have yet to ban anyone from the board - but you are pushing the limit of my patience. You and your buddy Steve Leigh need to spend time on the protection dog list not here.

You, LEERKOPF™ Frawley, the IDIOT, need to spend time in a DICTIONARY, since you can't even figure out how to turn on spell checking.  You want some SMART MOUTH COMMENTS?  Just read every page of the WFFCW.  I'll gladly show you "smart mouth", LEERKOPF™ IDIOT.

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