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Working Dog Forum
Working Dog Discussion for PPD, Sport and K9
This was a direct
LINK to this "table info" - it seems they've
deleted my messages, while retaining some of my select quotes.
As of June 6, I've been
deleted from this thrilling, informative "message board".
The "moderator's" hormones got out of control, because I
captured and rebutted 2 of Voodoo Louie's messages right here. She
doesn't approve of me "calling Louie names".
(See bottom of this page). And that's a real pity.
VOODOO LOUIE
CASTLE IS A DISEASE
THAT INFECTED THE INTERNET
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If you want to
download the complete, unedited screen captures
(2 pages) from the Working Dog forum
CLICK
HERE
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If that's not
enough for you,
CLICK HERE for 11 more pages of (mostly)
"defense table" nonsense |
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Voodoo Louie's text is
RED
Steve Leigh's
text is BLUE
NOTE:
I made some of Voodoo Louie's statements
BOLD to emphasize
his complete lack of knowledge.
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Table Training
- (Note: Everything was intentionally deleted from this screen capture except
my original message and Voodoo Louie Castle's babbling
responses.) |
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Steve Leigh
Puppy
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Tampa, FL
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Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:40 pm
Post subject: Table Training |
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Hello All,
My name is Steve Leigh, I ran a dog training business
for 21 years, beginning in 1981.
In 1991, Gene England invented table training. Within a
few weeks, I built a 1000 sq. ft. room for tables.
I used tables constantly from 1991 to 2002. I've trained
well over 1000 dogs on tables (under contract), and
tested/worked ~ 5000 more dogs.
For those of you wallowing in utter confusion, TABLES
ARE NOTHING. They're inert wooden/metal pieces of
equipment - which rely
100% on what the "helper" chooses to do or not
do.
Consider this concept: tables are NOT tables - they're
ecollars. Anyone who desires can get their hands on
them. What they DO with them is the entire issue.
Go to my website -
***MOD EDIT***...this is the
direct link to
the videos
( Not anymore it's
not! The link is GONE. The "moderator" is
full of shit - just as expected. Anything written
by me has been modified, deleted, or edited. If
you care to read this WITHOUT the rebuttals or
deletions,
CLICK
HERE )
and view videos of numerous dogs being trained (wrecked)
on the round table.
Then be kind enough to
TELL ME WHAT YOU SEE THAT'S WRONG OR DETRIMENTAL TO THE
DOGS.
I can't wait to hear the responses .... if anyone has
the nerve to view the videos and respond.
Steve Leigh |
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Lou Castle
Teething
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:45 pm
Post subject: |
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Mr. England did not invent table training.
Pure Voodoo assumption.
He may have popularized it in this country in recent
history but I've heard of dog trainers from Germany
talking about using tables 40-50 years ago.
Voodoo Louie's "heard of" more "training" than anyone alive -
but he's never SEEN anything.
It's probably older than that.
There are many forms of the table. It's used for bite
work, actually there are a couple of different shapes it
takes,
How the hell would you know? Other than RUMORS, you've
never experienced table work. You're NOTHING -
just a puppet that repeats rumors.
it's used for OB work (especially with small dogs - to
save the handler's back) and it's used for training the
forced retrieve. There are probably other uses as well.
One way it works is by limiting the dog's options.
The WHOLE WORLD learned about "limiting options"
a million years ago, when the "leash" was invented.
They learned it again in 1991, when Gene
invented table training - not this old 1938
"retrieve table" trash - TABLE TRAINING.
REAL table training, for biting
dogs.
Like any tool it can be used properly or it can be
abused.
What a profound remark.
When abused it takes the form of agitating a dog who
really doesn't have what it takes
How the hell do YOU know, Voodoo? Ever been there to
see?
to bite and when he fails to engage, the decoy knocks
him off the table.
THAT is a physical and mechanical
impossibility. A dog cannot be knocked off a
bite table - either the square or round. So much for
your "knowledge" of "bite tables".
Why don't you explain how you KNOW
about tables for bitework, Voodoo?
(a) Where have you used
tables?
(b) How many dogs have you personally trained on tables?
(c)
How many years have you been using tables on a daily
basis?
(d) What's
a rough estimate of the number of times you've put a dog
on a table and actually done any bitework?
(e) Did "a
friend" tell you all about tables, thus making you the
new "table expert", Louie?
Got no answers, do you Voodoo?
The dog can't get back on it and he strangles.
Voodoo Louie - who has experienced nothing -
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
- is spreading his rumors and lies again.
At the point where he's
about to lose consciousness,
he's helped back onto the table. If he still won't bite
the decoy this is repeated until the dog learns that if
he bites he doesn't get knocked off the table and he's
spared from a near death experience by strangling.
The only "near death experience" with tables is reading
your lying Voodoo Louie stupidity. It's what we've
come to expect from your infected mind, Louie.
Would anyone
look at the above pictures and explain HOW a dog can be
"thrown off" the table to "strangle"?
I've never felt the need to use one.
You haven't got the BRAINS to use a table, Louie
- and it requires BRAINS to train with
tables. Your "need" is insignificant.
But I do have one question. Why is that that tables used
for bite work are always set up inside of buildings
where a casual passer-by could not observe how they're
being used? If nothing untoward happens, why not do it
in the open? That's where most other forms of dog
training take place.
How stupid can one person be? (1) the steel, chain,
and roller bearings rust, (2) rain adversely affects the astroturf and wood. (I had one of my round tables
outside for several days - the astroturf didn't dry out
for months.) Outdoors, the tables might last
3 months at best - indoors, they last indefinitely, (3) weather has
an effect on outdoor training - indoors, we train right
through a hurricane, (4) a training room is well lit -
no limits to when training takes place, day or night.
Voodoo Louie tries to divert your attention again!
How many "casual passer-bys" drop in to watch
bite training? How many glass fronted dog training schools
(for bitework) are in
your local malls? How much bitework is
exposed to the public in general? Voodoo has no
clue how many times schools have requested demos here - I
gave annual demos constantly at my facilities, or the newspapers and
magazines, TV news stations, coming out to tape, interview,
photograph, USF college communications majors spending
an entire week here, taping and interviewing, on and on. Nothing is "hidden" - never
was.
A Little Challenge For
Voodoo Louie
Voodoo
Louie will never accept this challenge.
Louie
doesn't have the balls to accept this
challenge - or any challenge.
Louie
doesn't have the balls to make a phone call,
an appointment, and a visit.
Voodoo
Louie is afraid - terrified he might get hurt
by watching some dog training.
Voodoo
Louie will write his lying MESSAGES instead.
But
Voodoo Louie will never discover the truth.
Because
when the truth is in his face, Voodoo Louie
will be forced to face his lies.
And
Voodoo Louie doesn't have the balls to face
his lies.
Voodoo
Louie Castle doesn't have the balls for the
truth.
Contact
CESAR MILLAN
("The Dog Whisperer") in Los Angeles. His
phone number is easily available on Google. I first
met Cesar at one of my Mesa, AZ, table training
seminars, in 1994. Following that, Cesar came to
Florida (twice), both times spending 10 days,
learning more about using tables - for bitework.
Cesar went back to LA and built several sets of
tables. In 1995, Cesar brought me out to Los Angeles to conduct
a table
training seminar for him, his staff, and several
other local trainers. He repeated this in
1996 for another table seminar. Ask Cesar how many dogs were
"thrown off tables to strangle".
These pictures show Cesar, who has had his own
television program, "The Dog Whisperer", running
constantly for years. He has been
nominated for Emmy awards.
Unlike the Internet Disease, Voodoo Louie Castle,
Cesar has established himself as a dog
trainer, and is known around the world.
Voodoo Louie Castle has established himself as a
liar.
Cesar does not write internet messages by the
thousand. Voodoo Louie Castle writes messages
by the thousand. Cesar trains dogs.
Voodoo Louie Castle does not train dogs.
As you can see, Cesar is using a TABLE for bite
training. These photographs are dated 1995 on the back.
I'm sorry I no longer have the equipment to put live
videos in this section as well. I have some
videos of Cesar, using tables, doing bitework, at my training school, and in Los
Angeles.
Also shown in these pictures is Dr.
Thomas Brown, the man who first introduced me to the
world of Schutzhund, in 1976. For several
years, Dr. Brown was my teacher and mentor.
_________________
Regards,
Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
www.loucastle.com |
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Lou Castle
Teething
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:50 am
Post subject: |
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Jose Alberto Reanto wrote: |
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The mishandling of a tool cannot be blamed
on the tool itself.... |
I was merely illustrating the horror that agitation
tables can be when they're misused or abused.
When's the last time you SAW this "horror"?
I think it's far worse than when any other tools is
misused.
How do you KNOW? You have no
EXPERIENCE.
Abuse or misuse is
always the fault of the human involved. Tools
are inanimate objects that by themselves can not do
harm or good.
Mr. Leigh wrote, " . . . Gene England invented table
training. Within a few weeks, I built a 1000 sq. ft.
room for tables." (The first part of this statement
had already been refuted.)
Oh, no, it hasn't. Your dirt cheap message doesn't
"refute" a thing.
But why would it be necessary to "build a room for
tables?" The only tables I've ever seen built
outdoors are those for OB work or for training
retrievers.
Those are picnic tables, Voodoo.
All of the ones that I've heard of built for biting
dogs are indoors. Why couldn't they simply be put up
on the training field like equipment for the other
types of work? Why are they hidden from view of the
public?
The answers to your brainless questions are right
above. When somebody spends over $400 for the steel
work/machining for just one table,
it's quite likely he'll protect that investment.
Tarps don't keep the tables dry - I've tried.
They don't stop the rainstorms, either.
Have you ever seen a training video
Sure have - hundreds of them.
or even a website devoted to the use of tables?
Nobody who's serious about tables is going to
develop a website to teach people about
tables. INTERNET TRAINING DOESN'T WORK.
Who cares what you, or others like you, think or
understand about tables? If you want to learn
- do the same thing WE did - go someplace, learn,
and PAY. Education isn't free, no matter HOW
many lying, moronic messages you write hourly.
I've seen bird dog trainers refer to their table
many times. Magazines devoted to training those dogs
often have articles about using them. I've seen a
Dobbs video (more bird dog training) where he uses a
table. TriTronics has a chapter devoted to the table
in one of their books. I've seen many OB trainers
talk about using tables. But I don't recall seeing a
discussion about biting dogs where a trainer
suggested that a table, even used properly, was the
solution to a problem. Matt (in this thread) is the
first one.
More Voodoo lies. Numerous people on
LEERKOPF's™
kindergarten board have had numerous
positive things to say about tables for bitework.
Numerous people right here on this "Working
Dog Forum" have tables, use tables, and say positive things about
table training. That's because they know
- Voodoo Louie doesn't know a thing.
Absolutely nothing.
My questions are simple. If the tool is being used
properly why the scarcity of information from table
trainers?
BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET DISEASE - VOODOO LOUIE
CASTLE.
I've been willing to share table knowledge since
1991. There's no need to take your ABUSE as I tell the
truth, while you spread your LIES and RUMORS.
THE INTERNET DISEASE - VOODOO LOUIE
CASTLE,
put an END to people like me
HELPING people interested in table FACTS.
Why the secrecy?
"Secrecy" only exists in YOUR diseased mind, Voodoo.
Why are the tables built out of view of the public?
Clearly explained above - and "the public" was
always welcome to come and observe -
from the Director of Animal Control, to DEA agents,
to any and all police officers - K9 or
not - to the Chief of
Police, among thousands of others.
Why did Mr. Leigh find it necessary for "build a
room" for his tables?
Because I WANTED TO, Voodoo. It
appealed to ME to stay out of the rain,
Voodoo. I LIKED the idea of a lighted room,
where I could work 24 hours if I wanted,
Voodoo.
I just didn't know what to do with $18,000, so I
built a ROOM. I didn't even ask for your
approval, because I don't CARE about your
approval, Voodoo.
Perhaps nothing untoward is going on.
Sure it is. It's called "Voodoo Louie Castle -
The New Table Guru Disease".
But these facts raise my doubts.
What FACTS? Your lying messages aren't FACTS -
they're MESSAGES. You have nothing to substantiate
anything you say.
I'VE got photos, videos, facts,
RIGHT ON
THIS WEBSITE -
you've got nothing except your lying,
unproven messages. I can substantiate
what I say - you can't substantiate a thing.
"Someone told me" is your theme song.
You have no actual knowledge, Voodoo.
I favor another highly controversial tool, the Ecollar. But I do all my work in public, where
anyone can see what's happening. I've done seminars
for rescue groups and had the anti-aversive folks
present at them. No secrets, nothing happening
behind closed doors.
Big deal. My school had an "open door"
policy, too. That's why ALL the news channels in
the area, Women's Self Defense Magazine, and plenty
of newspapers came right here - through those open
doors - to observe, film, interview, and
photograph. It sure is a big "secret" when
you're on Channel 44's news for a 3 day special
on protection dog training.
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Matt Hammond wrote: |
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I use tables to clean up outs and impove
grips, it safes my back that is why.
|
Saving your back is a good reason to use a table to
raise the dog up.
How would YOU know?
I've used a picnic table with a dog that had focused
on biting only the legs and I wanted to make them
unavailable.
THAT'S a perfect Voodoo Louie example of utter
stupidity. It takes a MORON to use a picnic table for bitework.
I also had the decoy stand behind a small wall, but
that's another topic and not the table training that
is being discussed here.
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Matt Hammond wrote: |
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How tall was the table you saw Lou?
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I didn't see the table, I was told about it.
Damn right! Voodoo doesn't actually SEE
anything for himself - he's "told about it".
When the dog was knocked off the table was of a
height that he was unable to climb back onto it and
hung off it.
You were "told" wrong.
It's probably good that I didn't see it. I'd have
been making arrests for animal abuse.
If you were on MY property, Voodoo, you would have been arrested
yourself.
Abuse in the name of training is still abuse. Of
course I'm not saying that all table training is
abusive. But that method of using it is. I'll go so
far as to say that any method that regularly has a
dog being hung and choked into near-unconsciousness
is abusive. It's one thing to choke a dog out to
save your skin during an attack by the dog. It's
quite another to do it regularly in the name of
training.
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Matt Hammond wrote: |
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Mine is like 2 feet off the ground most dogs
will fall off and jump right back up with
out missing a beat. |
Then yours couldn't be used for the abusive method
that was described to me. It sounds as if the main
reason you're elevating the dog is to save your
back. Is that the case? Nothing wrong with that, but
it's not the main reason that table trainers use
them.
Since you're an authority on "the main reason
that table trainers use them", maybe you'd
exhibit your vast knowledge:
WHAT IS
THE MAIN REASON, Louie?
Keep on entertaining
us with your mindless lack of knowledge, stupidity,
and non-existent experience.
Keep on typin',
Louie!
You make more of an idiot of yourself
every day.
_________________
Regards,
Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
www.loucastle.com |
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Table Training - Late Breaking News UPDATE!
Steve Leigh kicked out of "Working Dog Forum"!
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admin
Site Admin
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 44
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:42 pm
Post subject: |
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Steve Leigh will unfortunately no longer be
posting on this forum.
The "admin-with-no-name" has
rendered her verdict.
I like to
think of this site as a place where we can
all be open to discussing ideas without
argument
Sure! But what's the point in
"discussing"? Everyone already
knows all
the answers - or they just ask Voodoo Louie,
and swallow his lies.
and agree
to disagree when need be. When Steve
originally posted here I was sure we could
get a productive discussion going between
someone who uses the tables to train, as we
have gotten out of several "controversial"
topics recently. I had seen his website
before but gave him the benefit of the doubt
You gave me the
"benefit of the doubt"? Who
the hell are YOU
to stand in judgment of what I put on MY
website? I pay for it, not
you. You're not going to
dictate what is or isn't on MY
website.
due to the nature of this
forum and its acceptingness of training
discussion. I don't care one way or another,
Then you're nothing but a hypocrite. You care
enough to remove me!
I have
heard things pro and con of table training,
Who CARES?
I've never done it,
That's obvious.
a trainer I
work with and respect uses the tables, but I
am sure that there's idiots out there
misusing them just as they misuse other
training tools.
You're just as profound as Voodoo Louie is.
Unfortunately Steve misused this
forum to gain additional material for his
website.
Damn right I did - when
Voodoo Louie spews his lies, I
occasionally capture them and make a page on
my site bigger. TRY AND REMEMBER
SOMETHING: Somebody from
YOUR location linked to my
website - otherwise I never would have known
YOU existed, (meaning your awesome, stupendous message
forum), I couldn't have cared less,
and never would have bothered to find it
myself OR register. Did you notice I was
never there - until after
somebody linked to
www.sl-prokeys.com/wffcw/ - isn't that
pretty obvious to you? Just look at
your member lists,
"admin-with-no-name". I'm
assuming you can read.
I would have
been fine with a civil discussion on this
forum, but taking it off this forum and
resorting to name calling and personal
attacks is where I have to draw the line,
sorry Steve.
Don't be sorry - I don't care one bit.
VOODOO LOUIE
CASTLE IS A DISEASE
THAT INFECTED THE INTERNET
Try and remember
that, too. He's infected message
groups like a disease. They
hate him everywhere - he's even infected
RV message groups. (Try www.woodalls.com and search their message
forum if you think I'm kidding!)
Louie has infected every
dog message group imaginable. VOODOO LOUIE
is an INFECTION.
Some
people just ruin it for the rest of us.
Anyway, I'm having to lock this thread down
now. Not because I don't like the topic, or
have any problem with the posts in this
thread, but because I don't want innocent
forum members to get dragged into something
involuntarily.
Before
this message,
"admin-with-no-name",
you can see EVERYTHING (above) has been
deleted except Voodoo Louie's collection of
lies. I didn't drag
ANYBODY into ANYTHING
on this page -
(you CAN read, can't you?) - your
"innocent forum members" were SAFE - except
lying Voodoo Louie Castle. But now,
since this message, I
put both of your complete pages into a zipfile for
download (see above). Congratulations,
"admin-with-no-name".
The thread will
remain available for all to read as they
wish.
Something says
you're going to delete it anyway. I
doubt you keep your word. (And
I was right! The link to this page is
GONE.)
_________________
WorkingDogForum.com Administrator |
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Working Dog
Forum
Working Dog Discussion for
PPD, Sport and K9 |
Voodoo
Louie's yapping again - but he has no knowledge or
facts, so
let's look at some pics, and see just how accurate lying
Voodoo Louie really is!
Voodoo Louie's words are RED
My rebuttal words are BLUE
Note: this
message was edited, verbatim, out of page #5 (wdf05.htm) from the 11
page collection for download:
CLICK HERE
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Defense table
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Lou Castle
Teething
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Sat Jun
10, 2006 8:37 pm
Post subject: |
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Thomas
Barriano wrote: |
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Gene
is a good old boy who says what he
means. IF he had meant to admit that
he had hung dogs off
of tables. That
is exactly what he would have said..
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***MOD
EDIT***...the Gene England speculation will
stop. On both sides. Thanks. Give him a call
to come over and talk...we need the dues!
/Woody
Lotsa luck,
"MOD EDIT" Woody. I'm sure Gene will
be there by nightfall.
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Thomas
Barriano wrote: |
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ARRGGG. Very few Schutzhund clubs I
train at, have their own field. Well
built tables are heavy. |
I bet you know of at least a couple of clubs
or kennels that have their own facility or
field where they keep agility equipment out
in the open. How many do you know of that
have a table out in the open?
*** Voodoo Louie
will now TELL you WHAT I did in 1991,
TEN YEARS before I ever
heard of him,
WHEN I
did it, and WHY. ***
Remember Mr. Leigh's comment?
Sure do.
It's right above, on this page.
It was (to the
effect) "Soon after (he) first saw table
training (he'd) erected a building to house
(his) tables."
That should
clearly indicate I already had tables
- and they had to be somewhere.
So if my training room wasn't built yet,
where were they?
Seems to me that if he was so
excited about getting started with the work
that first
he'd build the tables so that he
could use them. He'd keep them covered to
protect them from weather until he could
build his room for them.
But that's not what
he did.
It's not
what I did?
Are you absolutely SURE about
that, Voodoo Louie?
FIRST he put up the building and
THEN he built the tables.
BZZZZZZZZ! YOU LOSE, VOODOO! The
7 pictures below DON'T AGREE
with your lies. In fact, they prove
you're a habitual liar. Where
are YOUR pictures, Voodoo Louie? Where
is YOUR proof of ANYTHING?
The only reason I
can see for that is to
keep the public from
seeing what he's doing.
WHAT
public? Your thinking is infected.
Most habitual liars are like that.
It's a disease.
Can someone suggest
something else?
Sure. I'd suggest that some FACTS
and TRUTH would be excellent,
in place of Voodoo lies and speculation.
No matter what "seems to you" - you're dead
wrong - as usual. You're a HABITUAL LIAR
- A DISEASE THAT INFECTED THE INTERNET.
(Click pics for larger view - if you don't
check out the pics, you're missing this
whole thing.)
|
 |
Notice
the plywood with the semicircle cut out of
it? Is it scrap from
building a round table? In fact,
that's exactly what it is.
If you look at this and the next picture
very closely, you'll probably recognize
there are TWO sheets of scrap - two halves
of the round table top. Notice the "training room floor" is nothing
but framing? |
|
 |
The training room isn't built
yet. At
least it now has a floor, and 3 coats of
waterproof deck coating. But the
tables sure are built, and being used
every day. They're out on the field,
covered with tarps, getting wrecked every
time it rains. And it rains in
Florida. At least it
rains on my property. Maybe the
rest of Florida gets no rain. |
|
 |
Notice the grey long table? It's
outdoors. That's the one we carried
back and forth from the covered porch to the
training field every day. It took at
least 3 people to move it - better with 4.
This went on for months, as
the construction continued. The tarps
kept tearing off the tables due to wind and
rain. |
|
 |
The
training room still has no roof - and the long
table is still outdoors. So are the
square table and round table.
Why didn't I think (in 1991) to take
pictures of the tables out on the training
field so I could prove that they were
really
there in 1991? |
|
 |
The round table found its way into the
training room with no roof. Did it
rain during this construction period?
Yes, it did. Many, many
times. It rained so much, we
actually had to cut drain areas in the floor, to
squeegee the standing water out.
Note that the window areas aren't
even cut out yet. |
|
 |
The
round table is "inside" - with no roof. Unfortunately, the rain
wrecked it, and another one had to be built
within a few weeks. Which came first,
the tables or the training room?
Ask Voodoo Louie Castle - the
Voodoo mindreader who knows what I did,
when I did it, AND why
- 10 years before I ever heard of
him. |
|
 |
Here
we
have an (almost) rainproof room, with
lighting, and months of inside
work left to do. And we have the tables. Super
classified, top secret - so the public
cannot see what happens in that secret
room. Unless they happened
to watch it on about 12 local TV
news stations .... there are
only about 4 million viewers in
the Tampa Bay area. |
Note: construction of the
training room began in April, 1991.
I know this because of the
"construction crew", who were all training
clients, donating free time on weekends. The roof was shingled in
August, 1991. I know this
because I went to the hospital for heat
stroke, while putting shingles on the roof.
|
Thomas
Barriano wrote: |
|
Gene
England has trained more Police and
sport dogs (to V scores) than Mr.
Castle has seen. |
And THAT is a
FACT.
***MOD
EDIT***/Woody
_________________
Regards,
Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
www.loucastle.com |
|
|
VOODOO LOUIE
CASTLE IS A HABITUAL LIAR ....
A DISEASE
THAT INFECTED THE INTERNET
|
|
A NEW
Table Training page, just for internet message readers
|
